CI&TO Abhi Dhar on embracing challenges and growing IT leaders
Abhi
Dhar
has
had
a
rich
career
journey,
from
serving
as
chief
digital
officer
of
a
Fortune
50
company
to
co-founding
a
tech
startup.
Abhi
Dhar
has
had
a
rich
career
journey,
from
serving
as
chief
digital
officer
of
a
Fortune
50
company
to
co-founding
a
tech
startup.
In
his
current
role
as
executive
vice
president
and
chief
information
and
technology
officer
at
TransUnion,
he’s
responsible
for
all
aspects
of
the
company’s
technology,
including
strategy,
security,
applications,
operations,
infrastructure,
and
delivery
of
solutions
that
support
its
global
information
systems
and
associates.
Just
as
notable
as
Dhar’s
career
credentials
are
the
quiet
calm
and
genuine
humility
that
mark
his
leadership
style.
When
we
spoke
for
a
recent
episode
of
the
Tech
Whisperers
podcast,
we
explored
his
vision
around
transformation
and
his
ability
to
operate
with
a
business-first,
customer-first,
and
people-first
mindset.
Afterwards,
he
shared
some
more
advice
for
up-and-coming
digital
leaders
and
explained
why
it’s
worth
choosing
to
do
the
hard
things.
What
follows
is
that
conversation,
edited
for
length
and
clarity.
Dan
Roberts:
You’ve
been
a
C-level
executive
for
a
Fortune
50
company,
a
startup
founder,
and
on
the
board
of
airline.
What
are
the
benefits
of
these
diverse
experiences,
and
how
have
they
positioned
you
to
be
a
better
CI&TO
for
TransUnion?
Abhi
Dhar:
You
look
at
business
from
all
different
sides
and
you
realize
that
businesses
are
just
these
contraptions
that
are
supposed
to
generate
cash
and
cover
their
expenses
and
create
profit
and
pay
back
their
owners.
And
hopefully
the
contraption
itself
is
of
value
so
the
owners
get
more
value
out
of
it.
That’s
capitalism.
When
you’re
in
a
Fortune
50
corporation,
you
realize
that
it’s
this
enormous
contraption,
but
it
still
does
the
same
thing.
And
when
you’re
raising
a
million
and
a
half
in
seed
capital,
and
you’re
trying
to
build
this
contraption,
it’s
still
the
same
thing,
just
at
scale.
That
just
burns
an
owner’s
or
a
founder’s
mindset
into
you,
and
it
gives
context
to
decision-making.
So
does
being
on
a
board.
This
whole
notion
of
‘Somebody’s
money
created
this
thing
and
you
owe
them
something
back’
becomes
very
important.
It
also
has
helped
me
spot
talent.
There
are
people
who,
when
you
have
a
conversation
like
this,
they
get
it.
Then
there
are
people
who
are
just
compliant.
They’re
an
organizational
component.
They’re
not
mission
people.
You
need
them,
but
they’re
componentry,
not
value
creators.
What
are
some
of
the
challenges
startup
founders
or
those
working
in
small
companies
have
when
they
move
to
big,
legacy
corporations?
Big
corporations,
especially
public
corporations,
have
an
established
business
model.
You
have
risk
and
audit
and
all
of
these
people
trying
to
make
sure
that
nothing
wrong
happens.
This
thing
is
working,
it’s
generating
money,
let’s
not
mess
with
it.
A
lot
of
startup
founders,
when
they
join
a
corporation,
get
frustrated.
They’ll
criticize
it
constantly:
‘I
can’t
do
this,
I
can’t
do
that,
I
can’t
innovate.’
Yes,
it’s
a
tanker.
You
were
on
a
speedboat.
They’re
two
very
different
things.
Don’t
criticize
the
tanker
for
being
a
tanker.
It
does
something.
It
creates
a
value.
If
we
want
to
change
something,
let’s
be
very
considerate
about
it.
You
mentioned
your
ability
to
spot
talent.
You
also
have
a
reputation
for
developing
talent
and
growing
the
next
generation,
including
many
leaders
who’ve
moved
on
to
become
great
CIOs
in
their
own
right.
Why
is
that
a
priority
for
you?
At
this
point
in
my
life,
I’ve
realized
that
if
you
can
harness
the
strange,
undefinable
characteristics
of
human
beings,
when
they
get
fired
up
and
work
together,
they
can
do
magical
things.
That’s
how
great
things
happen.
So
that’s
what
I’m
focused
on.
The
greatest
joy
I
get
is
when
I
hear
stories
about
people
like
Greg
Michelini,
who
was
one
of
the
people
who
asked
a
‘mystery
question’
during
the
podcast.
There
are
20
or
25
people
in
my
career
who
are
now
CIOs
of
large
companies,
and
as
I
look
back,
it’s
those
stories
I
think
about.
It’s
this
person
who
didn’t
think
they
could
do
something,
and
they
did
it
and
they’re
now
a
CIO
and
they
look
back
fondly
on
what
you
did.
Except
you
didn’t
really
do
anything;
they
did
it.
The
most
successful
CIOs
make
‘people’
the
first
pillar
of
their
strategy,
and
it
seems
like
that
is
deeply
engrained
in
your
approach
to
leadership.
How
do
you
make
it
part
of
the
culture
of
your
organization?
I’ve
never
forgotten
how
hard
it
is
to
be
a
technologist.
When
there
is
a
crisis,
when
a
site
is
down,
when
a
system
is
down,
when
a
release
is
not
going
right,
it
feels
like
the
end
of
the
world.
It
is
extremely
stressful.
And
the
people
who
deal
with
that
stress
the
most
are
junior-
to
mid-level
executives.
These
are
people
with
small
children.
These
are
parents
who
are
just
grinding
it
out.
And
sometimes
the
systems
we
work
on
are
used
by
people
who
are
also
going
through
these
same
things.
This
is
humanity.
That’s
what
we’re
doing,
and
that’s
why
it’s
so
important
for
us
to
think
about
the
culture
and
say
people
are
not
expendable.
As
engineers,
if
we
can’t
avoid
something
that’s
going
to
create
troubles
for
ourselves
later
on
—
where
we’ll
have
to
jump
on
a
crisis
call
or
do
something
that
would
cause
a
colleague
to
jump
on
a
crisis
call
—
we
shouldn’t
do
it.
I
can’t
write
do’s
and
don’ts
and
FAQs
about
it.
But
I
can
appeal
to
people’s
desire
to
do
the
right
thing
and
to
work
as
part
of
a
collective.
Your
senior
vice
president
of
global
technology
platforms,
Deepika
Dugirala,
has
described
software
development
as
a
creative
process,
comparing
it
to
“creating
a
painting,
carving
a
sculpture,
writing
a
symphony
or
making
pottery.”
What’s
your
take
on
that?
If
you
look
at
those
people
like
Elon
Musk
and
Steve
Jobs
and
others
who
have
created
an
insane
amount
of
value,
nobody
would
argue
with
you
about
whether
or
not
they’re
creative.
The
people
who
become
engineers,
they’re
the
fixers
and
the
tinkerers
—
because
they’re
creative.
They
want
to
make
something.
If
we’re
not
careful,
we’ll
kill
their
creativity.
Part
of
it
comes
from
refusing
to
acknowledge
that
they’re
engineers.
We
keep
referring
to
them
as
IT
—
not
that
anything
is
wrong
with
IT,
but
the
function
of
IT
is
not
engineering.
You’ve
said
that
the
first
time
you
became
a
head
of
technology
you
wrestled
with
imposter
syndrome
and
had
to
prove
to
yourself
that
you
could
actually
be
the
head
of
technology.
How
have
you
dealt
with
imposter
syndrome
over
the
years,
and
what’s
your
advice
to
the
rest
of
us?
Imposter
syndrome
is
a
real
thing.
I
used
to
think,
I
have
to
go
to
all
these
CIO
meetings
because
now
I’m
the
CIO,
and
I
need
to
remind
myself
that
I’m
the
CIO.
It’s
that
constant
worry
of,
am
I
good
enough,
can
I
do
this
job,
what
if
something
happens?
Thankfully,
I’m
sort
of
beyond
that.
I
think
one
way
I’ve
managed
it
is
that,
given
choices,
I
choose
the
harder
thing.
And
then
I’ll
think,
oh
my
God,
I’m
done.
But
somehow,
some
way,
some
force
carries
me
forward.
People
around
me
support
me
and
I
make
it
to
the
other
side.
And
once
I’ve
made
it
through,
I’ll
say,
I’m
never
going
to
do
that
again.
I’m
going
to
take
the
easy
path.
And
sure
enough,
two
days
later
I’m
back
at
it.
And
I’ll
be
thinking,
why
did
I
do
that?
There
was
an
easier
path!
Why
would
I
join
a
board?
Why
did
I
do
a
startup?
Why
would
I
go
to
a
financial
services
corporation
when
I’m
a
retail
guy
—
I
don’t
know
anything
about
financial
services.
This
is
so
hard!
But
somehow,
we
make
it.
And
somehow,
slowly,
that
little
voice
that
says
you
can’t
do
it
starts
feeling
less
important,
because
now
you’ve
done
it.
The
most
important
thing
is,
if
you’re
completely
devoted
to
the
service
that
your
role
is
supposed
to
provide
to
the
organization
and
overly
focused
on
it,
then
it’s
kind
of
like
you’re
not
even
in
it.
It’s
not
about
you
at
all.
You
are
intentional
about
pushing
people
beyond
their
comfort
zones.
Could
you
speak
to
those
across
our
profession
who
are
climbing
the
ladder
but
can’t
seem
to
break
through
to
the
next
level?
I
am
an
immigrant.
I
came
to
the
US,
didn’t
know
anybody,
and
constantly
wondered
if
I
was
good
enough.
By
happenstance
and
luck,
I
ended
up
in
situations
where
I
needed
help,
so
I
sought
out
mentors
and
they
helped
me.
Because
of
what
happened
to
me,
when
other
people
are
stuck
and
don’t
see
how
they
can
really
progress
as
professionals,
I’m
able
to
spot
it.
I
remember
having
this
conversation
with
Greg,
telling
him
he
needed
to
take
the
job
at
this
Fortune
10
company
and
be
responsible
for
our
pharmacy
systems,
from
a
tech
point
of
view
and
from
a
customer
point
of
view
and
from
a
business
point
of
view.
I
said,
‘You’re
the
best
of
the
best.
What
are
you
doing
running
around
here
being
like
a
bureaucrat?
Go
do
this.’
He
was
like,
‘That’s
crazy.
That’s
so
risky.’
And
I
said,
‘Yeah,
but
you’ve
got
it,
man.
If
I
did
it,
so
can
you.’
There
are
multiple
people
like
that,
and
it’s
not
because
I
have
some
great
foresight.
It’s
just
that
I
made
a
lot
of
stupid
mistakes,
and
I
can
point
out
to
people
how
that’s
going
to
end.
So
it’s
very
important
that
I
do
that.
That’s
also
where
I
talk
about
‘flipping
the
script,’
because
a
lot
of
people
will
say,
this
is
the
script.
And
I
keep
telling
them,
no,
you’re
none
of
those
things.
You
are
this
person
who
can
do
this
by
generating
this
much
value
because
you
understand
this.
Once
you
provide
that
clarity
to
people,
they
do
great
things.
The
biggest
success
in
my
life
outside
of
my
family
is
all
these
great
people.
They
are
amazing
CIOs.
If
they
worked
for
me,
and
they’re
a
CIO,
I’m
telling
you
right
now,
I
give
you
my
reference:
You
send
them
into
any
battle,
and
they
will
win.
For
more
wisdom
and
insights
from
Abhi
Dhar’s
leadership
playbook,
tune
in
to
the
Tech
Whisperers
podcast.
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